Earnings Labs

Rithm Capital Corp. (RITM)

Q4 2014 Earnings Call· Fri, Feb 27, 2015

$9.86

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Transcript

Operator

Operator

Good morning. My name is Stephaney and I will be your conference operator today. At this time, I will like to welcome everyone to the New Residential Fourth Quarter and Full Year 2014 Earnings Conference Call. All lines have been placed on mute to prevent any background noise. After the speaker’s remarks, there will be a question-and-answer session. [Operator Instructions]. Thank you. I would now like to turn the call over to Ms. Mandy Chalk. Please go ahead.

Mandy Chalk

Analyst

Thank you, Stephaney and good morning, everyone. I would like to welcome you today to New Residential's fourth quarter and full year 2014 earnings call. Joining me here today are Michael Nierenberg, our CEO and Jonathan Brown, our Interim CFO and CAO, and Cameron MacDougall, our General Counsel. Throughout the call we are going to reference earnings supplement that was posted to the New Residential Website this morning. If you have not already done so, I would suggest that you download it now. Before I turn the call over to Michael, I would like to point out that certain statements made today will be forward-looking statements. These statements, by their nature are uncertain, and may differ materially from actual results. I encourage you to review the disclaimers in our press release and investor presentation regarding forward-looking statements and to review the risk factors contained in our annual and quarterly reports filed with the SEC. And now, I will like to turn the call over to Michael.

Michael Nierenberg

Analyst

Thanks, Mandy. Good morning, everybody, and thanks for joining our call this morning. We are really excited to talk to you about our fourth quarter results as well as our full year for 2014. We are really proud of our team we had a terrific year. We will also be discussing our merger with HLSS which we announced this week and discussed on a call this past Monday. We will share as much information with you as possible however please be aware there are many things we cannot discuss as HLSS has not released Q4 results and we have not completed the merger at this time. I will be referring to our deck which has been posted online. As I take you through our presentation our goal with our company continues to be simplification of our business and our story. Our core business is to focus on mortgage servicing, servicing advances and non-agency securities with associated call rights. To the extent we see opportunities in large addressable markets that will afford our shareholders outside returns we will invest capital in those areas but for now we want to continue our focus on our core business and the simplification of our company. Now I will begin on page 2, in our deck. Our current market cap is approximately $2.1 billion which is up 1.7 billion at the end of 2013. Since inception we have had outstanding results generating a return on equity of 26%. Our year-over-year growth in core earnings is up 46%. Our year-over-year growth in all areas has been excellent. We have paid out 343 million of dividends since the spin of the company in May of 2013, that’s on a capital base of $1.4 billion. We continue to grow our core earnings and our dividends. Our excess MSR…

Operator

Operator

[Operator Instructions] Our first question comes from the line of Bose George with KBW.

Bose George

Analyst

Actually the first question is just on the HLSS the debt equity mix on the HLSS transaction. And actually when I look at slide 15 -- I actually -- can we infer from that just what the mix is going to be for the deal?

Michael Nierenberg

Analyst

Yes. I mean basically what this really is, is our balance sheet as of Q4 and their balance sheet as of Q3. So what we tried to do is just lay it out on one page, so you can just, you could have an view as to what the combined company would look like.

Bose George

Analyst

And I mean in terms of when you referred to the -- actually on your previous calls you may have talked about self-funding does that include any capital from Fortress or other sources or is it basically debt and equity that's going to be issued by NRZ?

Michael Nierenberg

Analyst

When we said on a call we have enough funds to self-fund the transaction, we could do that with our own balance sheet. And I think [bodes] for now that's the way that we are approaching it and then we will update you down the road as far as how we're thinking about it. But we can sell funds -- we can self-fund with our own balance sheet.

Bose George

Analyst

Okay. Actually just switching over to the quarter -- actually how much was the MSR -- negative MSR mark in the quarter?

Michael Nierenberg

Analyst

It was pretty flat it was down marginally it was down a couple of million dollars but overall it was pretty flat.

Bose George

Analyst

And then just one more. On the consumer finance the refinancing you guys did in the fourth quarter was their gain that went through GAAP as well as looking forward I think probably a little bigger gain. What happened -- can you just discuss the gain on that refinancing?

John Brown

Analyst

Hi this is John Brown. So we had a gain that was expected on the refinancing but we had some offsetting losses on some economic hedges that were reported in the quarter. Those are primarily offset by gains on some assets that were sold in the first quarter, so you will see a flip of that in the first quarter.

Bose George

Analyst

Okay. And those would be -- these assets sold those are unrelated to the consumer finance portfolio is something else?

John Brown

Analyst

Correct.

Bose George

Analyst

Okay. But so the gain that we should have expected in 4Q we'll see coming in 1Q?

John Brown

Analyst

Partially you saw in 4Q and partially you will see it in 1Q.

Bose George

Analyst

Actually, great can I just throw in one quick additional one, the 12% to 15% -- actually you guys gave a 15% to 20% return on expected return on the MSRs and Nationstar yesterday mentioned a 12% to 15%. Is a difference there that you position the excess gives you a better return just curious how do you tie the two numbers?

Michael Nierenberg

Analyst

I think the recent purchases we are estimating along with our partners at Nationstar a 12 to 15 type return. However if rates do rise and we do believe rates are going to rise and the fed is going to increase rates we believe we will have some upside on those portfolio. Keeping in mind in our existing portfolio of $249 billion for the part of our legacies so they are going to be fairly immune from a rallying rates and we do think they are going to be benefit from a risen rate. And there is life-time return on that portfolio buzz is 29%. So overall we are still pretty comfortable with our projection of a 15% to 20% life-time return.

Operator

Operator

Your next question comes from the line of Paul Miller with FBR Capital Markets.

Paul Miller

Analyst · FBR Capital Markets.

Hey Mike can you talk going back to self-funding the portfolio and you said your update is down the road, what were -- how you thinking about this -- why would you issued if you could self-fund it now, why would you issued debt or capital down the road or would it be mainly because you are seeing better opportunities?

Michael Nierenberg

Analyst · FBR Capital Markets.

Paul you know our balance sheet, you know kind of what we've done I think over the course of the past couple of years. We think we have lots of options. And you can speculate and I think I mentioned to you everything on the phone we just can’t really get into how we are thinking about all of our options right now. We have pulled some loans which have raised some cash, which are kind of non-core investments; we've sold some other non-agency securities that are where we didn’t know the associated call rights. So you couple that with what we think our options are, I think we have plenty of options to do this. I know it doesn’t help you Paul.

Paul Miller

Analyst · FBR Capital Markets.

So when can you fill us in with more detail about this. I mean after the HLRS release earnings or this is just down the road as you guys take a look at this?

Michael Nierenberg

Analyst · FBR Capital Markets.

It’s really down the road. Clearly we still have to close on the transaction, so I would expect it's going to be some time.

Operator

Operator

Your next question comes from line of Henry Coffey with Sterne Agee.

Henry Coffey

Analyst · Sterne Agee.

Well in addition to answering Paul’s question I think we all want to know what a post merge company looks like. You now have -- there are actually about when I looked at the BFA deal from years ago and turned out they are like actually six or seven special servicers out there that picked up those BFA assets on that basis. So now you have two vendors managing your business. What kind of dialogue is going to go on between your company and Ocwen in terms of what they need to deliver and what you can do about it? Now it really is a vendor relationship. They obviously need to get the servicer advances lower. What’s the dialogue going to be going forward?

Michael Nierenberg

Analyst · Sterne Agee.

It’s going to be a very -- we hope it would be a very cooperative one. We would hold our servicer as with our partner Nationstar we would hold -- we would have a hopefully a terrific relationship with Ocwen we would hold them to the highest standards of servicing, but we think they are a good servicer and that’s one of the reasons why we are entering into this transaction. You know this merger with --

Henry Coffey

Analyst · Sterne Agee.

Are there any impairments do you for example bring in a third-party or another party so you can have a champ your challenge environment every month making sure that everyone -- Nationstar, Ocwen whoever else you bring into the equation are all delivering the highest returns for NRZ.

Michael Nierenberg

Analyst · Sterne Agee.

Yes, I think a lot of that stuff is already built in, working with the two largest non-bank servicers in the business having an MSR portfolio of north of $400 billion I think it puts us in a very, very good spot. To the extent there are other things that we could do down the road obviously we would do that. But I think we are pretty comfortable with Ocwen we are comfortable with Nationstar and we look forward to working with both in a very collaborative way.

Henry Coffey

Analyst · Sterne Agee.

What is your assessment about what it really cost it service and non-agency portfolio right now, in terms of however you want to express it basis points?

Michael Nierenberg

Analyst · Sterne Agee.

Hen from the delinquencies in the portfolio and I think listen certain servicers will be more low cost than others but I think it depends on the delinquencies in the portfolio.

Henry Coffey

Analyst · Sterne Agee.

And then a simple question in terms of your actual cash balances, I saw one -- you got over 289 I think, I didn’t write them, 212 million cash and then you are using 90 in your example. What are your current cash resources in terms of on balance sheet cash and assets you could sell and then I just had other last question.

John Brown

Analyst · Sterne Agee.

I will start with the [12/31] question. So we had 230 million of cash in our GAAP balance sheet that includes like 60 million of cash that is in the servicer advance deal and it also includes 55 million that's reserved to pay off the dividends on January 31. So when you adjust those out that's how you get to 99 million that's in the presentation. And as far as our current liquidity obviously we sold some assets since year-end [indiscernible].

Henry Coffey

Analyst · Sterne Agee.

And then the last question. You know there is the whole issue of [indiscernible] compliance which involves a lot of specialized [reflectors] to hold the assets, the hold agency bonds basically. Are there -- I know there are things you can do to mitigate that but I have never had those articulated, so maybe you can give us some sense of what you might be able to do to continue to reduce the requirement that you hold agency mortgages?

Michael Nierenberg

Analyst · Sterne Agee.

Yes I think those for us we're always evaluating different things but we always want to be obviously compliant with REIT rules and REIT requirements. I think at this point we have some agency pools on our balance sheet. As we stated in the past we do not make big duration bets on our agency portfolio, so I would kind of leave it at that.

Operator

Operator

Your next question is a follow-up from Bose George with KBW.

Bose George

Analyst

Actually I missed the answer to Henry's second question just on the current liquidity that’s available?

John Brown

Analyst

So, yes I mean we had the 99 million that Mike was talking about and then we have sold assets since year-end, we have a significantly larger cash balance now that we're going to disclose the exact amount but we're feeling very good about our liquidity.

Bose George

Analyst

Actually in terms of the servicing advance facilities is there a way to think about how much liquidity can be freed up by optimizing those more effectively either at HLSS or NRZ?

Michael Nierenberg

Analyst

Sure on the NRZ side, our LTVs are a little bit north of 90%, if you look on the HLSS side their LTVs are approximately 85%, I think that's probably a fair way to think about that Bose -- not everything is apples to apples but the portfolios are fairly similar and on the non-agency side or the PLS side so I think that would be a good place to start.

Bose George

Analyst

And then just in terms of counterparty risk on the HLSS transaction, now how do you think about this growth in terms of servicing advance funding issue, actions by bondholders anything else just how would you characterize how you are viewing that risk?

Michael Nierenberg

Analyst

I think nobody ever said the mortgage market was easy. I'll start with that comment. But we are the funder to Ocwen or to Nationstar on servicing advances. So we have very, very strong relationships with all of our lending counterparties which are typically the very large banks. So we feel good about that. As it relates to bondholder stuff and other things I just -- all that stuff is -- there is a lot of speculation -- we will continue to work with everybody to make sure that we have a very sound and safe mortgage market as we are very big capital provider to the mortgage market not just on servicing advances and MSRs but also on bonds. So I think that's the way we will think about it.

Bose George

Analyst

And then just one last one. In terms of HLSS having the rights to the MSRs versus being the main servicer does that need to change or does it make any difference as you -- as the merger takes place?

Michael Nierenberg

Analyst

No it doesn't need to change Bose.

Operator

Operator

Your next question comes from Kenneth Bruce with Bank of America, Merrill Lynch.

Kenneth Bruce

Analyst · Bank of America, Merrill Lynch.

I guess and I am sorry if this was addressed on Monday -- Monday seems like a long time ago already. In terms of the call rights you pointed out that you look for bonds where basically you would have the call rights. And in case of HLSS and Ocwen I think Ocwen has basically 0.22 call rights strategy as well and I am wondering who do you think owns the call rights in the context of HLSS?

Michael Nierenberg

Analyst · Bank of America, Merrill Lynch.

I think it varies but it's our belief that the majority are owned by Ocwen.

Operator

Operator

At this time there are no additional questions. I will turn it back over to Mike for closing remarks.

Michael Nierenberg

Analyst

Thank everyone for calling in. A lot of exciting time for us and we appreciate all your support. Have a great weekend.

Operator

Operator

Thank you. This concludes today's conference call. You may now disconnect.