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Thomson Reuters Corporation (TRI)

Q4 2016 Earnings Call· Thu, Feb 9, 2017

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Transcript

Operator

Operator

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for standing by. Welcome to the Thomson Reuters Full Year and Fourth Quarter 2016 Earnings Conference. At this time, all participants are in a listen-only mode. Later, we will conduct a question-and-answer session. Instructions will be given at that time. As a reminder, this conference is being recorded. I would now like to turn the conference over to your host, Senior Vice President, Investor Relations, Mr. Frank Golden. Please go ahead.

Frank J. Golden - Thomson Reuters Corp.

Management

Good morning and thank you for joining us as we report our financial results for the full year and the fourth quarter of 2016. Our CEO, Jim Smith, will start today's discussion followed by our CFO, Stephane Bello. Following their presentations, we'll open the call for questions and we would appreciate it if you would limit yourself to one question each, in order to enable us to get to as many questions as possible during the call. Now two items to point out before we get started. First, a reminder that throughout today's presentation, when we compare performance period on period, we do look at revenue growth rates before currency, as we believe this provides the best basis to measure the underlying performance of the business. And secondly, we closed the sale of our IP & Science business on October 3 and its results were classified as discontinued operations and therefore are not included in either the fourth quarter nor the full year reported results, except for free cash flow. Now today's presentation contains forward-looking statements. Actual results may differ materially, due to a number of risks and uncertainties discussed in reports and filings that we provide to regulatory agencies. You can access these documents on our website, or by contacting our Investor Relations Department. Now I will ask Jim Smith to take us through the results. Over to you, Jim.

James C. Smith - Thomson Reuters Corp.

Management

Thank you, Frank, and thanks to those of you on the all for joining us today. 2016 was a year of continued progress executing against our operating and financial plans. I'm encouraged about the underlying improvement in our business and the momentum we've built heading into 2017. Specifically, we've continued to demonstrate traction in pursuing the core objectives we set out three years ago, including fixing our Financial business and returning it to growth, operating at scale to improve profitability and investing for organic growth, making fewer acquisitions and returning more cash to shareholders. Today's results reflect the clear progress we're making against each of these objectives and I'm confident this progress will continue in 2017. Total company organic revenue growth was positive for the second consecutive year. And importantly, the Financial business returned to growth in the second half of the year. A foundation we expect to build upon in 2017. Our core legal and tax subscription businesses continued to perform strongly. However, lower transaction revenues and continued challenges in our Government business and tax had a dampening effect on revenue growth last year. We're forecasting improving revenue growth for all three businesses this year. Improving productivity and profitability has been at the core of our strategy. I mentioned last quarter that our enterprise group has now clear visibility into a $3.3 billion cost base enabling us to operate at scale. This is reflected in our higher margins and profitability for employee, both of which have improved significantly. I remain confident that the opportunities that this group continues to uncover will lead to further productivity gains and greater savings again in 2017. And as we make further progress in growing our top line, we expect to increasingly benefit from the improving operating leverage as reflected in our margins. We've…

Stephane Bello - Thomson Reuters Corp.

Management

Thank you, Jim. As always, I would like to first cover a few housekeeping items before discussing our financial results. As Frank mentioned, when discussing our performance against the prior year, I will be comparing year-on-year results excluding IP & Science, which was classified as a discontinued operation in 2016. This will hold true for all metrics except free cash flow, which includes IP & Science, and is not restated in line with the way we have always treated divestitures in the past. And given our focus on driving organic revenue growth, our recent acquisition activity has been far less significant than in prior years, meaning that growth rates discussed in this presentation are largely organic. This first slide provides a snapshot of our fourth quarter and full-year results on a reported basis, which includes the impact of both currency and the charges incurred in the quarter. Both in the fourth quarter and for the full year, revenues were down 1%. Excluding currency, revenues were up 1%. As Jim mentioned, we recorded a charge of $212 million in the fourth quarter, which negatively impacted both EBITDA and operating profit. This is consistent with what we announced last November, when we predicted that the amount of the charge would range somewhere between $200 million and $250 million. As a reminder, we took this charge as we saw an opportunity to accelerate our transformation initiatives. The charge was spread among all business units with the largest amount impacting our financial business, which bore about 80% of the total charge. Fourth quarter adjusted EBITDA margin declined to 22.2% due to the charge, and for the full year, the adjusted EBITDA margin was 26.5%. And similarly, underlying operating profit margin was 12.9% in the fourth quarter and 17.3% for the full year, both down…

James C. Smith - Thomson Reuters Corp.

Management

Thank you. The slide Stephane just discussed regarding our margin improvement over the last four years really speaks to what we can achieve as an organization when we channel our focus and energy on simplifying our business. As I mentioned earlier, we're now pivoting our focus squarely on improving customer experience to accelerate our revenue growth. I believe we have a large opportunity ahead of us and we're now using the very same framework and infrastructure which we successfully deployed to execute on our transformation program and we've focused it on improving customer experience and sales effectiveness. We expect to deliver solid improvements in our revenue and margin performance in 2017 through revenue growth and further productivity improvements. We are also committed to deliver a record EPS performance in 2017 in line with the target we've communicated previously. But more importantly, we're also taking the steps necessary to improve our revenue growth trajectory beyond 2017. As I stated before, our ultimate financial goal is to maximize earnings and free cash flow per share performance over time. The transformation program helped do this during the first years of our transformation journey. Improving our revenue growth trajectory will enable us to carry this objective much further into the future. With that, let me turn it over to Frank for your questions.

Frank J. Golden - Thomson Reuters Corp.

Operator

Thanks very much Jim and Stephane and that concludes our formal remarks regarding the performance for the quarter and year. So now, operator, I'd like to open the call for questions, please.

Operator

Operator

Thank you. And one moment please for your first question. Your first question comes from the line Paul Steep from Scotia Capital. Please go ahead.

Paul Steep - Scotia Capital, Inc.

Analyst · Scotia Capital. Please go ahead

Great. Thanks. Jim, could you maybe talk a little bit – on slide 10 of the presentation, you talk about the core investment highlights that you aim to put money behind this year. Can you talk, I guess, first, on the context of the contribution from these? It looks like you've sort of re-stack ranked them from, I guess, a year ago where Risk and Elektron have maybe floated to the top and then maybe the magnitude of investment in those?

James C. Smith - Thomson Reuters Corp.

Management

Sure. And I think that we're always calibrating the relative priority and relative weighing and we do that collectively as a team and I think this would reflect the view of all of our senior team as to where the most attractive growth opportunities present themselves and I think they also represent where we think we can get the most meaningful acceleration in growth rate that will move the whole needle. I think all of those initiatives that we've called out are in fact still attractive growth initiatives, but we re-ranked them based upon those that can, we think, be the biggest opportunities and could move the overall needle. So I think you could expect a proportionate shifting of our resources in a very dynamic way, but all of which will be dealt with within the spending envelope that we have developed.

Paul Steep - Scotia Capital, Inc.

Analyst · Scotia Capital. Please go ahead

And I guess, the context of how large, are these consuming a significant or material amount of the CapEx investment this year or is it, these are just growth investments and should we really think of them in 2018 as sort of helping drive meaningful growth? Thanks.

James C. Smith - Thomson Reuters Corp.

Management

Stephane, yes.

Stephane Bello - Thomson Reuters Corp.

Management

Yeah. So in terms of the revenue base of this business in aggregate represent a little bit over 50% of our total revenue base. They get a disproportionate amount of our product development capital. I would say – if I recall correctly, the percentage grew to (46:45) 70% of our CapEx for product development. So we really are allocating a much higher percentage of product development dollars to these four initiatives than anywhere else.

James C. Smith - Thomson Reuters Corp.

Management

And I think adding to that, that's probably been one of the biggest benefits that we've seen from having a central enterprise group with clear visibility into all of that spend, we're able to direct that in a more dynamic fashion toward those opportunities.

Paul Steep - Scotia Capital, Inc.

Analyst · Scotia Capital. Please go ahead

Great. Thank you.

Operator

Operator

Your next question comes from the line of Ato Garrett from Deutsche Bank. Please go ahead.

Ato Garrett - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.

Analyst · Ato Garrett from Deutsche Bank. Please go ahead

Hi. Good morning, gents. So just looking at the Legal segment a little bit there, you gave the context that you're seeing U.S. demand in the fourth quarter was down slightly with some steady gains at Am Law 100 and softness in the smaller markets. When we look forward to 2018, can you give a little context about what you see turning around given your expectation for improving revenue growth in the segment?

James C. Smith - Thomson Reuters Corp.

Management

Sure. Look, I think that if you kind of look at how the episodic nature of those engagements, particularly around our Legal Managed Services business work, that's going to be choppy and in 2016 we had a year in which we went against a year in which there were a number of class action suits and regulatory enforcements against financial services agencies and that generated a lot of work for us. That didn't repeat in 2016, but if you look underlying that, what we've seen is a steady improvement in our core subscription businesses and that's – I just came from our legal sales conference earlier this week and I can tell you, we have a sales force that's got a very attractive pipeline and coming off a strong finish to the year. So we think the core business is going to carry us forward. There will always be years in which we're going to have spikes and valleys in terms to some of those transactional businesses, but we'll take those revenues when they come and look at the stability of the underlying base of that business. And if you think about it, more than 80% of that business comes from these stable subscription based products and those all look quite attractive going into the future, and as do some of our software products as well.

Ato Garrett - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.

Analyst · Ato Garrett from Deutsche Bank. Please go ahead

Okay. Great.

Stephane Bello - Thomson Reuters Corp.

Management

Let me point out, the only thing I would add which is a very secondary point to what Jim just said is that if you look at our transaction, the growth in our transaction revenues this year, it – the comparison should get easier and easier as you go through the year which – I mean, obviously as we said, these are more volatile revenue, but all things being equal, it should make the comparison more and more simple as we go through the – as we ramp up the year.

Ato Garrett - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.

Analyst · Ato Garrett from Deutsche Bank. Please go ahead

Okay. Great. And if I could sneak in one more. Just looking at the net sales within Europe, you said that was the area that drove the decline in net sales within the fourth quarter. Can you talk about whether that was a change in – whether that was mainly driven by head count changes in the sell-side or that was more of a competitive dynamic shift with some of your clients kind of switching providers?

James C. Smith - Thomson Reuters Corp.

Management

It was not a competitive dynamic shift. It's driven exclusively by cutbacks in sell-side mix in Europe. And to a lesser extent, Russia and Brazil as well which was just a function of macroeconomic events. We do not sense a change in competitive position there. In fact, if you look at our gross sales performance and I don't want to get in a habit of reporting gross debt all that on a regularly quarterly basis. Underlying our gross sales performance was actually quite good across the board.

Ato Garrett - Deutsche Bank Securities, Inc.

Analyst · Ato Garrett from Deutsche Bank. Please go ahead

Great. Thank you very much.

Operator

Operator

Your next question comes from the line of Vince Valentini from TD Securities. Please go ahead.

Vince Valentini - TD Newcrest

Analyst · Vince Valentini from TD Securities. Please go ahead

Yeah. Thanks very much. I'll try to package two questions into one here, but following up on the European sales environment, we saw a pretty nice uptick in the last stats in terms of employment levels which were for the third quarter, so still a bit lag, but by our count, there were the 3.6% increase in employment levels in financial services in the main European countries. So are you seeing that in your outlook for 2017 and would this – so Q4 net sales were negative, but that was really a lag effect from the head count reductions earlier in the year whereas a real forward looking demand environment maybe finally start to stabilize and get a bit better. And if I can package with that, when you look forward to 2018, the recoveries are no longer an issue, the commercial pricing adjustments are no longer an issue, your net sales keep ticking forward, do you have some level of confidence that this more mid-single digit type growth for F&R maybe at least 3% or 4% is possible in 2018?

James C. Smith - Thomson Reuters Corp.

Management

The short answer to the latter is yes. We like the trajectories that we see. The earlier question is will be a bit more nuanced based upon my experience and my contacts with our customers this year. And I think you have a bit of a different picture in the U.S. versus Europe and rest of the world. So I'll start by clarifying that. I think collectively what I see in financial services sector is a very cautious optimism that things could turn. And in the U.S. it's driven largely by the expectation that some of the regulatory challenges that have been put in front of financial services institutions will be taken away and that they'll be freer to prosecute all lines of their historic business. So I see some, again, cautious optimism on that regard. And then I see in Europe and also shared in the United States a cautious optimism looking forward to what could be a return to a normalized interest rate environment which, of course, is very important to the bank's profitability. So I would say there was a cautious optimism, but it's different U.S. versus rest of the world, particularly U.S. versus Europe. But on both sides of the Atlantic there's a cautious optimism.

Vince Valentini - TD Newcrest

Analyst · Vince Valentini from TD Securities. Please go ahead

Thanks.

Operator

Operator

Your next question comes from the line of Toni Kaplan from Morgan Stanley. Please go ahead. Toni M. Kaplan - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC: Hi. Good morning. I wanted to ask about the Tax & Accounting business. It looked like the government part of it continues to be under pressure and you had some increased investment and expenses related there in the quarter. Can you explain really what you're doing in those contracts with the Government and how we should think about future growth in margins for that business overall?

Stephane Bello - Thomson Reuters Corp.

Management

Sure, Toni. Let me try to take that one. First, let's make sure we keep thinking perspective, right? The Government business is a very, very small proportion of the overall Tax & Accounting business. It accounts for, I think, less than 3% of the total revenue base of the business. We are in the process of implementing a few very large and very complex contracts with several municipalities and the implementation of these contracts is taking longer than we thought and that obviously has negatively impacted both revenues and EBITDA for us. During the fourth quarter what we also did, we took a very close look at the assets we got on our books as they relate to the business and as a result of that review, we decided to write up some assets which obviously had a further impact on revenue, EBITDA and EPS. Now looking forward to 2017, as I said on the call, we do expect that we're going to continue to need investments in that business and so that investments will essentially continue to exceed revenues in that business. But given the balance sheet adjustments we've made throughout 2016 and in particular in the fourth quarter, I would say we are cautiously optimistic that the need to make such large one-time investment balance sheet adjustment should be much lesser than was the case in 2016. So, look, it's a small business. It's proving to be much harder to implement these large contracts that we have anticipated, but we're working diligently on it and that's really what our focus is at this point in time. Toni M. Kaplan - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC: Great. And I wanted to just ask a broader question on margins. So outside of the cost savings from the transformation plan you have, how should we think about that which segments should contribute the most to margin expansion both next year and beyond and just the key initiatives that should drive that margin expansion aside from scale. Thanks a lot.

Stephane Bello - Thomson Reuters Corp.

Management

Sure. I would say primarily our Financial business, Toni, and it's because of the point that you mentioned. The bulk of the charge we took in the fourth quarter, about 80% was very much in that business, so they should see the largest benefit coming from that business. But also most importantly, we also speak about the operating leverage that we get in the business once we start getting back into growth territory, right? And where you're seeing the biggest shift going from negative to positive revenue growth is also in our Financial business. So given the global nature of that business, given its scale and given the positive revenue dynamics I tried to describe in one of the slide, I would expect that's where you would see the biggest improvement. Toni M. Kaplan - Morgan Stanley & Co. LLC: Thanks very much.

Operator

Operator

Your next question comes from the line of Peter Appert from Piper Jaffray. Please go ahead. Peter P. Appert - Piper Jaffray & Co.: Thanks. Stephane, just staying on the Tax & Accounting for a second, the growth has slowed meaningfully I think relative to the trajectory historically in that business. Would you say competitive issues is a factor there?

Stephane Bello - Thomson Reuters Corp.

Management

No. I don't think so and actually if you exclude the impact of the Government, the revenue growth of that business is still pretty solid. It's definitely still in mid-single digit in 2016 and that's pretty much what we would expect to see in 2017 also. Peter P. Appert - Piper Jaffray & Co.: Okay. Fair enough.

James C. Smith - Thomson Reuters Corp.

Management

Yeah. And I think, Peter, if I can add just a little color there and it's only because I was within the last five days been with their sales team at the year kickoff. I echo what Stephane says. I think the enthusiasm there is good. If you look at that business in 2016 versus 2015, there were a couple of really big corporate contracts. So as we move into the corporate space, a lot of growth being driven in the corporate space and there were a couple of big contracts that we signed in 2015 that didn't repeat in 2016. And if you look at over the course of the year what we saw, particularly in the corporate space, was a tough first half year comparison, but actually good solid performance over the latter half of the year, and they exited on a strong run rate. So I think there's a lot of confidence in that business, and I really believe that's going to be a strong part of our growth story going forward and will continue to lead the growth rate for us. Peter P. Appert - Piper Jaffray & Co.: Great. Thank you. And then, Jim, on the acquisition front, with the Clarient and the Avox deal, are acquisitions maybe a little bit more backend focused at this point?

James C. Smith - Thomson Reuters Corp.

Management

There's been absolutely no change in our strategy there. We pivoted hard toward organic growth. We've always had our eye open for those tactical, fold-in acquisitions that would support our organic growth initiatives. And that's exactly what Clarient and Avox are. As you'll see, we had another tactical acquisition that we announced of the REDI business, which provided execution management capability into our desktop products, which we needed. Nice tuck-in and really an important added functionality. Clarient and Avox, those two businesses, again, it's a relatively small tuck-in individual business, but what it represents is a strengthening of our position in the KYC, client on-boarding space. And even more than the acquisition of those businesses, we're delighted that they support the strategic initiative that we've been advancing for the last five years. And particularly that – one of those businesses was really a consortium of some of the largest banks and the DTCC and have that blue chip client list trust us to be part of the industry-wide solution was a validation, I think, of the strategy we are on, and something we're very flattered by. So we very much like our position in that space, and we think we're going to continue to build out there. But that's the kind of acquisitions that you could expect to see from us. That's just what we've done over the last five years. But we're not out looking for the big homerun acquisition. We've always got our eyes open. And in almost every case it's a build, buy, capability discussion. Peter P. Appert - Piper Jaffray & Co.: All right. Thanks, Jim.

Operator

Operator

Your next question comes from the line of David Chu from Bank of America. Please go ahead.

David J. Chu - Bank of America Merrill Lynch

Analyst · David Chu from Bank of America. Please go ahead

Good morning. Thank you. So it sounds like gross sales in F&R remained largely consistent. So can you quantify how much retention was down in the quarter?

Stephane Bello - Thomson Reuters Corp.

Management

Retention was, I think, just in the high 80%s, a little bit over 90% we were targeting. So I think it was around 89% or so.

David J. Chu - Bank of America Merrill Lynch

Analyst · David Chu from Bank of America. Please go ahead

So what was it in the third quarter roughly?

Stephane Bello - Thomson Reuters Corp.

Management

It's probably – as I said, it's probably in that range, around – between 89% and 90%.

James C. Smith - Thomson Reuters Corp.

Management

I think that I would add this as color, we did not see a dramatic change in retention in the fourth quarter over prior years or over prior quarters or over the kind of run rate that we've had for the past few years, as we've said in this relatively low-growth environment we're operating in right now, in any given quarter, one or two contracts can or – and one or two customers can determine whether or now we're above-the-line positive or below-the-line negative. And I would – this last quarter fell into that bucket, and that's just where we were. There wasn't some dramatic shift, it was just cutbacks at a couple of the big European sell-side banks, kind of general softness across Europe and then Russia and Brazil.

David J. Chu - Bank of America Merrill Lynch

Analyst · David Chu from Bank of America. Please go ahead

Okay. That's helpful. Thanks. And also, Jim, as you suggested, there's some cautious optimism for the financial industry in the U.S. Can you discuss what you saw in the U.S. during the renegotiation season?

James C. Smith - Thomson Reuters Corp.

Management

No, look, I like our position with our clients. I think we worked really hard over the last five years to restore our credibility with our clients to be a trusted provider and to be someone that's at the table when we're having bigger, broader discussions about what we're able to do and how we're able to help our clients reduce their overall cost of operation. And how we can provide alternatives to other competitors and indeed to internal spend within the banks in many instances. So I think we've had really solid and productive conversations, actually across the board. So I'm quite encouraged about where we ended the year. And when you think about the optimism that comes over, perhaps some rollback of regulations that will allow a return to some more offensive activities in the U.S. banking sector, no one expects we're going to go to a wild west world of no regulations, nor that the regulatory environment is going to get any less difficult to navigate. I think all of us realize we live in a world where regulatory scrutiny is going to be very, very high and frankly, we have an opportunity to help our clients navigate that.

David J. Chu - Bank of America Merrill Lynch

Analyst · David Chu from Bank of America. Please go ahead

Great. Thank you very much.

Operator

Operator

Your next question comes from the line of Giasone Salati from Macquarie. Please go ahead. Giasone Salati - Macquarie Capital (Europe) Ltd.: Hi. Good morning. Just one question on Financial & Risk. What is your assumption in terms of MiFID II impact on head count in Europe in 2017 or 2018?

James C. Smith - Thomson Reuters Corp.

Management

(1:04:01) on head count for 2017 and 2018? Giasone Salati - Macquarie Capital (Europe) Ltd.: Yes.

James C. Smith - Thomson Reuters Corp.

Management

That's what. For Financial & Risk. Giasone Salati - Macquarie Capital (Europe) Ltd.: It's probably a loaded question given I seem to be the only analyst based in Europe.

Stephane Bello - Thomson Reuters Corp.

Management

You mean – I'm sorry. Just you mean the head count of banks in general? Giasone Salati - Macquarie Capital (Europe) Ltd.: Yes. If there is any relationship still between the cancellation of desktop in Q4 in EMEA and the head count in the financial industry in Europe. And MiFID II is one of the biggest driver of these trends in 2017 and 2018. What is your assumption behind the impact of MiFID II in Europe, European financial head counts, behind the general guidance you're giving for the F&R division of an improvement in organic revenue growth?

Stephane Bello - Thomson Reuters Corp.

Management

I would say generally speaking, we do expect continued pressures on desktop revenues for the reason that you mentioned. It's very, very much linked to head count. And so what we've tried to do, as you've seen one of the slides we presented, is really try to shift our revenue mix away – to have less reliance on desktop revenues. And our desktop revenues represent now less than like 40% of our total revenues. It's still a pretty meaningful proportion, but it's much less than it used to be. So we would – we're not counting on desktop revenues to start rolling going forward. That's not the basis of our plan in Q1. Giasone Salati - Macquarie Capital (Europe) Ltd.: Okay. Maybe if I can follow-up, just quite a different way. Can you split up what kind of volume and pricing growth you expect in F&R for the next – for 2017?

Stephane Bello - Thomson Reuters Corp.

Management

Well, we would expect – again, net sales is primarily a measure of value. And I would say from where we sit today we would expect net sales to be positive in 2017. And pricing is generally in line with inflation. But we would expect certainly a modest uplift from pricing. Giasone Salati - Macquarie Capital (Europe) Ltd.: Thank you.

Operator

Operator

Your next question comes from the line of Tim Casey from BMO. Please go ahead.

Timothy Casey - BMO Capital Markets

Analyst · Tim Casey from BMO. Please go ahead

Thanks. Good morning. Can you talk about how your discussions are evolving on the topic of Brexit with your major customers? And what assumptions you've made in your guidance with respect to any Brexit implications?

James C. Smith - Thomson Reuters Corp.

Management

Sure. I think that it's still too soon to say what's going to happen with Brexit. I mean we're beginning to see some clarity in thinking. But people are largely reevaluating where they want to do certain activities. Thinking about how they think the regulations might evolve. In our discussions what we've emphasized, and we feel quite confident actually that we'll be able to respond. In any scenario we've discussed with our clients, we do have operations on the ground in more than 100 countries, and any place that our clients would consider moving any of their economic activity, we already have operations on the ground and we're really well positioned to serve our clients regardless of where they go. I think that while you're seeing some early indications that people are given a hard look at what they want to do and where they want to do it, there's still very much a wait and see attitude because we're at the very early days of this and I think there's not a lot of clarity as to what the ultimate result is going to be of negotiations that haven't even really begun yet. So I think there's a great deal of uncertainty about Brexit, as there's a great deal of uncertainty about a lot of stuff in the world today and we're just concentrating on making certain that we're going to be able to serve our clients regardless of the individual decisions that they make.

Timothy Casey - BMO Capital Markets

Analyst · Tim Casey from BMO. Please go ahead

Thank you.

Frank J. Golden - Thomson Reuters Corp.

Operator

Operator, we'd like to take one final question, please.

Operator

Operator

Okay. That question comes from the line of Drew McReynolds from RBC Capital Markets. Please go ahead.

Drew McReynolds - RBC Dominion Securities, Inc.

Analyst · RBC Capital Markets. Please go ahead

Thanks very much for squeezing me in. Just two quick follow-ups. Just first back to Tax & Accounting, maybe for you, Stephane. Just on the EBITDA margin side, we're bumping around quite a bit and we've had that reallocation kind of go into the segment, can you just give us some margin parameters to look for for 2017 and maybe longer term? And then secondly, can you just give us a cash tax number for 2017 just so we can work that through our models? Thanks.

Stephane Bello - Thomson Reuters Corp.

Management

Sure. Let me try to get these two questions. On the EBITDA margin for Tax & Accounting, you're right. There are a lot of factors to take into consideration. Last year we had the negative impact of all the adjustments or charges we had to take in our Government business. Next year we are looking at these change in allocations. I would say at a high-level, Drew, one largely offsets the other. So if you look at the margins for Tax & Accounting this year, excluding the impact of the Q4 charge, if you look at the underlying margin, it probably is reflective of what you should expect next year. I think it's just around 30% or so. On your question regarding cash taxes, we would expect these to go up a little bit. I mean, to the extent that our profitability goes up, our cash taxes will go up. So order of magnitude it's not massive, but it's probably about maybe $250 million or something like that.

Drew McReynolds - RBC Dominion Securities, Inc.

Analyst · RBC Capital Markets. Please go ahead

Okay. Thank you.

Frank J. Golden - Thomson Reuters Corp.

Operator

That'll be our final question. So we'd like to thank you all for joining us on our fourth quarter year-end call, and we look forward to speaking to you when we report Q1 in April.