Good day, everyone. Welcome to the TELUS 2025 Q2 Earnings Conference Call. I would like to introduce your speaker, Mr. Robert Mitchell. Please go ahead.

Hello, everyone. Thank you for joining us today. Our second quarter 2025 results, news release, MD&A, financial statements and detailed supplemental investor information were posted to our website earlier this morning. On our call today, we will begin with remarks by Darren and Doug. For the Q&A portion, we will be joined by Zainul, Navin and Tobias. Briefly, prepared remarks, slides and answers to questions contain forward-looking statements. Actual results could vary from these statements. The assumptions on which they are based and the material risks that could cause them to differ are outlined in our public filings with the securities commissions in Canada and the U.S., including our second quarter 2025 and our annual 2024 MD&A. And with that, over to you, Darren.

Thanks, [ Mitchie ], and hello, everyone. In the second quarter, our team's commitment to operational excellence empowered TELUS to deliver another quarter of industry-leading customer growth and strong financial performance. These results demonstrate the strength of our leading portfolio of bundled offerings across mobile and home and the strategic expansion of TELUS PureFibre connectivity to homes and businesses, inclusive of Ontario and Quebec. We're delivering much more than just affordable Internet. We are providing Canadians with differentiated and unique competitive services, including AI-fueled smart home energy management, next-generation health care, affordable innovative security and exciting entertainment solutions. Our investment in Canada will be augmented by our recently announced $2 billion investment to expand broadband services in Ontario and Quebec. This will allow TELUS to prudently progress national scale through smart broadband network builds and drive product innovation, competition, investment and affordability in Canada. The CRTC's wholesale fiber decision mirrors the access granted to Eastern-based companies in the West and as well the wholesale access that TELUS is providing the cable companies on our broadband wireless network in Ontario and Quebec. Relative to our peers, TELUS stands out as the company committing to bold, future-focused infrastructure investments, reflecting our confidence in the Canadian market over the longer term and our strategy of bundling wireless and wireline broadband services. Importantly, our track record aligns with the federal government's goals of unlocking private investment, building one Canadian economy by removing interprovincial barriers, addressing cost of living challenges for families, diversifying Canada's economy through driving innovation of Canadian IP and ensuring Canada is on the leading edge of AI, digital innovation and smart sustainability. Turning back to our strong second quarter performance. We achieved total mobile and fixed customer growth of 198,000 in the quarter. This was driven by mobile phone and connected…

Thank you, Darren, and hi, everyone. TELUS had another very strong quarter of operating execution, financial performance and delevering activities. Mobile network revenue was down slightly as mobile phone and connected device subscriber additions as well as higher IoT revenue of 9% were offset by lower mobile phone ARPU. While the 3.3% decline in ARPU is reflective of the ongoing competitive pressures observed during the prior periods as well as lower overage and roaming revenues, we are seeing an improved operating environment as market conditions stabilize. We saw ARPU trend improvements quarter-over-quarter across new activations, rate plan changes and customer renewals, reflecting our ongoing efforts to mitigate network revenue pressures. Fixed data services grew 3% year-over-year, our 18th quarter of positive growth, driven by subscriber ARPU growth in Internet as well as security and automation. Additionally, fixed revenue was supported by higher managed services in the business area. TTech adjusted EBITDA increased 3% alongside margin expansion of 100 basis points to 41.7%. These results were driven by our consistent emphasis on profitable customer growth and ongoing focus on cost efficiency and effectiveness and asset monetization progress. TELUS Health revenues and adjusted EBITDA grew 16% and 29%, respectively, and adjusted margin expanded 180 basis points to 17.5%. This growth was driven by organic growth in Employer Solutions as well as business acquisitions, including Workplace Options. TELUS Health EBITDA, excluding Workplace Options, was over 20%. That is 8 quarters in a row now of over 20% EBITDA growth in TELUS Health. Growth was also supported by various other services, including our Payvider vertical. In digital, operating revenues and adjusted EBITDA were in line with expectations. Please refer to TELUS Digital's earnings release and analyst call commentary earlier today. At the end of Q2, informed by TELUS Digital's most recent financial model refresh,…

Thanks, Doug. Carl, we're ready for questions, please.

[Operator Instructions] The first question is from Jerome Dubreuil from Desjardins.

First I have, I'd like to start on whether we should read anything in terms of strategic shift from your proposed privatization of TIXT. I mean does it mean there's a change in terms of the monetization path for other tech ventures that are adjacent to telecom or the move is based on maybe more idiosyncratic items at TELUS Digital?

Move is related to support the deleveraging goals of the organization. And I don't think you should read anything into that on an adjacency basis to the other monetization strategies that we have with our emerging growth businesses.

Okay. And if you can maybe provide financial details on the towers, maybe numbers about EBITDA of the entity. I recognize it's consolidated, but that would still be helpful.

Yes. We haven't disclosed the EBITDA, but you will see that all the towers are at fair market value rent. So I think it'd be fairly transparent on the number of towers we have. As mentioned, we will be consolidating. So there will be no impact on debt, no impact on EBITDA and will be free cash flow positive in all of our future modeling on an annual basis to TELUS when you bring in the business model that we have put forward and have agreed upon with our partner.

The next question is from Maher Yaghi from Scotiabank.

Doug, thanks for the additional disclosure this morning on the deal. You indicated that in the short term to, I guess, the medium term, your free cash flow should be having a positive impact from the transaction. How should we think about the long-term impact of this deal as you deploy more towers? I think there's, in the deal, a plan to deploy more towers. And what happens if we see more colocations on these towers if other of your peers begin to put their antennas on them? So that's my first question. Just a question on wireless. Darren, you indicated in your prepared remarks that you feel that the market is getting better in terms of its direction on price. What gives you -- I guess, what gives you the view that this could be sustained? I think this is an important question that a lot of investors are trying to get an answer to that the recent improvement in prices have the potential to be sustained over the medium term.

On the first one, as you're well aware, the demand for data continues to increase. So within our model and our partnership with Terrion, they're going to continue to build towers for capacity and densification for TELUS. In addition, they will continue to lease with other colos, as you highlighted. The business model we have in front of us is that not only will we break even or be very positive or positive cash flow into the future, the co-locate based on our current plan, which is very reasonable, will also keep us cash flow positive for the term of the agreement. And when you think of some of the challenging margins that the industry has, as Darren highlighted, this is a great opportunity for us to utilize assets across the whole industry better and more effectively to increase the profitability and return on these assets by all providers.

So Maher, I don't have a crystal ball, and it's probably not appropriate that I wax lyrical on pricing. So I'll just put those out as 2 caveats. In terms of what gives me hope, I don't think certainty is on the table is probably a few things. Number one, I think the current trend is encouraging. So it's not just AI that draws inference from trends on data. So I think that is an encouraging component. Secondly, the market has previously been irrational. So when prices create NPV negative outcomes, I don't believe that, that's sustainable. So at some point, the market has to shift from irrational to rational. I don't think that's a particularly astute observation, but I think that transition has to take place because it's just not sustainable to have that level of irrationality leading to negative NPV outcomes. Now eventually, given the amount of capital that we deploy within our industry, I think economics have to drive our pricing decisions. And I'm hoping maybe not in any given day or any point in time, but over the medium to longer term, that's the axiom that's reflected in our go-to-market decision-making. The other thing that I think is interesting to draw inference from in terms of observable comps is that looking across other jurisdictions globally, you see more sanguine behavior. So if it seems to work there, it might work here. Again, given the commonality of the economics overall for our industry, particularly how much we have to invest, so let's make sure that we get a proper ROI on that investment. Having said that, I think what you want out of an investment in TELUS is to hope for the best, but plan for the worst, which is why we're fanatical on the AMPU front,…

The next question is from Stephanie Price from CIBC World Markets.

I just wanted to circle back on the towers for a minute. And I was hoping that you can unpack the interest savings versus the rent payments when you kind of talk about getting to the net cash flow positive impact.

The combination of the interest savings plus the colo revenue are what would be the offset of the lease payments and our share of those because we are still owning 51% of that. That is the math in itself. And so I'll just leave it at that, and we'll -- we've built in and we've agreed to the model with our partner on those fronts, and we're planning to execute to that level.

Okay. Sounds good. And then just on Koodo, Koodo reintroduced 5G plans at the flanker level. Obviously, we saw the similar thing to back-to-school last year. Just curious if you could talk a little bit about that strategy and the positioning, the flanker versus the flagship offerings as we head into back-to-school?

Zainul, do you want to take that one?

Yes, sure. Thanks for the question, Stephanie. So I think what we've done across our offers is really look at 3 pillars related to customer economic value from a data size, roaming and speed tier perspective, device subsidy and then the financing floor. And we've really done a lot of research on what we think customers are going to gravitate towards and the features and functions that are aligned with our AMPU objectives. Reintroducing 5G back into Koodo made sense from that perspective because there were other value drivers that we are monetizing out of the flanker strategy. So we're really trying to keep it commensurate with what customers are willing to pay for, what attracts them to the brand, what service level and device type that they're going to gravitate towards and how that aligns with the overall economic value of the offer. So that's how we move towards that decision. And it -- I think we're pleased with some of the traction on the premium versus flanker differentiation, but there's more to go in that regard.

The next question is from Vince Valentini from TD Securities.

Two things. One, Doug, can you just clarify the working capital $223 million outflow. Obviously, that's the part that does not include the contract assets and easy installment plans. Is that something one-off, lumpy? And will it recur in the second half? Second one, bigger picture, back to wireless, but let me try to take the crystal ball out of it, not predict the future, but just if the recent trend of slight improvement in pricing discipline were to be sustained, how long will it take for your wireless service revenue to get back to positive versus the minus 1% clip you've been at? Is this something that's still going to take 4 or 5 quarters for all of the past pricing behavior to flow through? Or are we much closer to an inflection point, again, if the current price discipline holds? Maybe another way of asking that is, is there any way to quantify what percentage of your customer base is already repriced with very little risk of any further movement down?

So on working capital, Vince, we expect working capital to be somewhat net neutral on free cash flow or on cash flow for the year. So it is the lumpiness of timing between just payables and receivables and the seasonality that our industry sees. So there is no expectation that it will be a drain on cash for the full year.

Thanks for the disguised question on quarterly ARPU forecasting, Vince. I appreciate that. Of course, for me to give you a precise answer, I would have to know the trajectory of the recovery for the industry on a macro basis. I'll try to answer your question with 2 components. One is the majority of our base has been repriced. I won't be precise as to the exact percentage in that regard, but it is the majority. And if there is a continuity of the performance, I would hope within the next 3 to 4 quarters, we would achieve the inflection point that you're alluding to in that regard.

The next question is from Tim Casey from BMO.

Two for me. Doug, you mentioned there's a variety of drivers on the fixed data line, which was up 3%. I'm just wondering if we should think of that as a sustainable number into the back half of the year and into '26, given what you've seen in terms of competitive activity and your continued efforts in out of footprint. And secondly, just maybe if you could, an update on some of the other deleverage drivers, I guess, particularly real estate. How are you thinking about what path you might choose there? And what are the interim monetization patterns you're going to see as you sell some stuff?

Zainul, do you want to take the fixed component first? I think you've got a pretty robust response to that, to say the least. And then, Doug, why don't you do real estate?

Sure. Thanks very much for the question, Tim. So on fixed data growth, I think we've definitely shown a lot of consistency, as Darren highlighted in his remarks. I think the other element underpinning that is the diversity of the contribution. So when you look at the diversity of that contribution, you can see that there's strong growth across a bundle and portfolio of services from Internet to other contributing elements, including our security portfolio, but also with respect to the business growth that helps support that fixed revenue profile.So Navin may want to top up on that. But I think that diversification certainly helps with the continuity. Maybe the last comment I'll make is that you can see, I believe, that while we are growing sustainably and consistently, we are also growing profitably. So whether that's in footprint or out of footprint, we're really looking at ensuring that our value propositions, our pricing and our customer acquisition are commensurate with driving profitable consumer growth and ensuring that we leverage our existing customer base to grow into from a household standpoint so that we're able to achieve that at a lower cost of acquisition. So I believe that there's good sustainability in that growth profile, and we're being very disciplined in terms of how we're seeking that growth, and we're continuing to build our diversification accordingly.

Just before Doug goes, given that the strength of the story here is not relegated exclusively to consumer, Navin, would you like to top up on a B2B basis and the opportunities that you see there on the performance on the TBS front across SMB and mid-market, both to date performance but also potential?

Yes. Thanks, Darren. I'd be happy to. I think the first thing I would say is that we continue to outrun competitive and pricing challenges with volume. And we're doing that both on the fixed and the wireless side. We're seeing strong loading both in our incumbent areas as well as nationally. So we continue to see opportunities to grow market share across the country. And what I think is really nice to see is that our ability to drive product intensity is continuing to accelerate and improve, and that's really on the back of strong customer experience capabilities from the TELUS business team and customers seeing that as a key differentiator in making decisions to make product decisions that are beyond just one product. So I think that's been really great. Our IoT business continues to grow well. We're monetizing 5G, both on connectivity as well as associated industry solutions and data capabilities, private wireless network doing really well as an example in that regard. And just lastly, we continue to focus strongly on our margin profile. And as Darren mentioned, with the strong assets we have in TELUS Digital, we continue to drive AI and other automation and digital capabilities in the business and improving both our customer experience and cost profile concurrently. So I'll leave it at that. Darren, back to you.

Thank you, Navin. Doug?

Yes. So on real estate and other delevering opportunities, we have 3 or 4 other buckets. So real estate itself, as you may recall, we had approximately 200 properties that we're looking at, and that would equate to a $2 billion to $3 billion portfolio that we could roll into a REIT when the scale was appropriate to do so. That would include over 5,000 to 10,000 rental units depending on the full rollout. We're still a couple -- probably a couple of years away from getting that scale in the build program. We do have 3 buildings coming live early 2026, but in the meantime, we are still rationalizing real estate. You would have even seen in this quarter, there was in the other line a real estate transaction, which generated more cash for our organization. And we'll continue to do that where we can rationalize real estate and not under the development side, but we're building an asset of consequence, pruning where necessary and continuing to drive long-term value from that asset. We still have -- we've only completed 3 of 31 central offices on the copper decommissioning side. So we still have a significant amount of room to go as well on our copper monetization. We've recycled over 5 tons so far and generating double that, almost 10,000 tons of greenhouse gas reductions from the recycling of that copper. And so again, that $1 billion opportunity we have is probably only in its less -- significantly less than 10% from an execution perspective, but we actually have sight to getting to those remaining 31. And then we have our, call it, our pruning opportunities where we do have ventures and certain business opportunities that are not necessarily in our strategic long-term footprint. And you've seen a couple of those monetizations as well. And you'll continue to see those in the tens of millions over the next few quarters. And then probably midterm, we still have the partner opportunity. And I think Darren referred to this as well in both health and tech. But as we build these assets of consequence and you've seen the -- especially the accelerated growth in TELUS Health, that there is definitely a lot of interest in bringing in partner relationships as well as partner interest on inbounds to us of can they -- how can they help us grow that business.

The next question is from Drew McReynolds from RBC.

My question, just, I think, bigger picture probably to start off for you, Darren, on, I guess, Canada's sovereign AI push here with respect to the ecosystem and infrastructure, and it all seems very fresh. And of course, I think Canadian telecom investors are just wondering kind of what the role of traditional telcos like yourself will be in this broader ecosystem. We've seen some news announcements from many operators here. Just would love to get your sense of where you think the biggest incremental revenue growth opportunities are potentially within this ecosystem.

I'm going to be tight, not expansive on this because I'm very frustrated with thought leadership and intellectual property leakage here in terms of the strategy that we have been pursuing. So 3 areas for me that I think are interesting. One is there's a huge opportunity on the sovereign AI factory front. We are ideally positioned to leverage on an optimized basis, particularly given our relationship with NVIDIA and where we can take that on a progressive basis in terms of compute power and how that can be leveraged on both an inference and on a training basis. And that duality is important as well as our sustainability thesis getting into the realm of liquid cooling and the like. And I think we have an opportunity there to play a pivotal role in that regard. And you have to be mindful that telcos are originators, carriers, deliverers, storers of data. So our position here, including within the broadband infrastructure and security front, is exceedingly strong. So that would be component number one. Component number two is the ingestion of AI within our business. And the upside opportunity there I don't think has any limits in terms of what it can do for us at a productivity level on go-to-market operations from sales to service to care to assure to billing and collection in that regard as well as the cost efficiency attributes. And then thirdly is the external go-to-market opportunity within TELUS Digital Solutions led by Tobias and his team. And we are unique with this asset on the TELUS Digital Solutions front, which is both a fantastic enabler for TELUS Corporation proper but is also a terrific vehicle to take our AI solution set out into the external market on a global basis and in some cases, but not limited to, recycling the product factory that TELUS is on the AI front in terms of our ecosystem, developing, trial testing, using and scaling these services and proving it out, and of course, then taking that particular show on the road with TELUS Digital Solutions. Tobias, maybe I'll ask you, just on the latter point that has less competitive sensitivity to it, just to talk about our attributes on this front and why we like our competitive positioning in this regard.

Yes. Thank you, Darren, for the question. I would say that -- and I mentioned this on the TELUS Digital call earlier that this second half of the year, we're seeing a real transition in the marketplace from proofs of concept to actual production level deployment of AI. And one of the most exciting things for us at TELUS Digital is to work with TELUS as customer zero to really prove these concepts out at scale, and that gives us a big differentiator versus most of our competitors who don't have a built-in customer zero. I can give you 2 quick examples. TELUS Expert Messenger (sic) [ TELUS Expert Messaging ] has been launched. It's our asynchronous messaging customer support platform. And because it's async, it's ideally suited for AI in its current state. I think we've all experienced AI can at times be slow. At times, you have to ask it. You have to really coax the answer out. So something asynchronous is perfectly positioned for AI. We launched it this year. We've been able to improve first contact resolution by 9 percentage points, a 25% point reduction in agent attrition, which goes to speak how much -- if you deploy AI properly, how much it improves team member experience. And when we included AI in this platform, we got a 13% improvement in average handle time. Another example is our agent trainer, which we've launched with TELUS with other clients as well. And I think an example of how powerful an AI-based agent trainer is, is we looked at the bottom quartile. Putting them into an AI agent trainer within 30 days, 80% of the bottom quartile were top-quartile performers and also concurrently driving a customer satisfaction score uplift of 16% within that cohort. So those are illustrative examples of taking proofs of concept and taking them to full production and, I think, really allowing us to be leaders, especially in contact centers for global deployment.

The next question is from Benjamin Swinburne from Morgan Stanley.

Two questions. I want to ask about the Internet business and then maybe come back to AI and data centers. So on Internet, some comment in your prepared -- or in your earnings docs about churn being up year-on-year and sort of competitive intensity. I guess when I think about your brand and your fiber network, I think it's really well positioned to win in the market. So just wondering if you guys had any more color on sort of what's happening with churn and competition and whether you have any expectation for those trends to improve over the next couple of quarters. And then just back to this sort of tying AI and the data center businesses together, is there an appetite or plan to deploy capital at TELUS towards new data center construction? I'm sure you're well aware Bell has been making a lot of news on that front. I'm just curious if you think that's an interesting opportunity or maybe not the best use of capital from a TELUS perspective.

Zai, do you want to take the first part on that, if you don't mind, and maybe talk about what we've done on pricing related to wireline economics, but also where we're going in terms of our churn improvement measures?

Absolutely. Ben, thank you for the question. So as we stated, we have seen some upticks in churn, not to our liking. We've been a very strong proponent and delivered on significant customer loyalty quarter after quarter. So even when we see some small changes, we take that very, very seriously. We have seen affordability constraints across the consumer environment and aligning with customers on what their price preferences are and ensuring that we rightsize bundles towards their preferences. But I think that the key element here is that we're really leaning in and working with Tobias to leverage AI on churn propensity, on churn early identification, on aligning pricing models. And we're seeing goodness with respect to making sure customers are seeing more consistency in their pricing and more opportunities to drive value into their households through other streaming or other bundles that we offer. So I think overall, we're not happy with the trajectory that we've had in the past. We're taking very significant measures to ensure that we improve that trajectory, and we're continuing to leverage the assets that we're known for with respect to the AI capabilities, the loyalty and customer service experience improvements and the bundling capacity of ensuring that customers see more than just one product value in terms of our holistic bundle, and our product road map will continue to improve in that regard.

And in terms of the next question, I guess, the response could be best characterized as being fortuitous for us because TELUS had previously invested significant capital in the development of world-class, world-leading data centers in both Rimouski and in Kamloops. And when I say world-class, we put a lot of effort and capital into the construction of those facilities to ensure that we optimize for power. We chose locations that had minimal seismic susceptibility and had sustainability and security attributes and broadband connectivity that was truly second to none. So we are recycling these facilities into our sovereign AI factory. So we're completely bootstrapped, if you will, on that front, which means the capital required to undertake this activity in partnership with NVIDIA, it's not nothing, but it's effectively de minimis because we're leveraging an existing asset. And not only does that help us on the affordability or the capital efficiency front, it helps us on the speed front as well as the longevity in terms of how we can evolve the compute power and sustainability characteristics going forward. And that's quite a potent and highly differentiated story. The only other thing I would say on this front is as these opportunities continue to evolve, it's not unforeseeable that we could also look at partnership opportunities there to bring in capital to support undertakings of this nature given our advantaged position, not unlike what we've just done with La Caisse on the tower monetization. So lots of latitude and optionality here. And there's nothing like sweating an existing capital asset to get a second life, if you will, on a return basis, and that's what we're doing.

Carl, we have time for 2 more questions please.

The next question is from Matthew Griffiths from Bank of America.

So on the towers, you mentioned that the plan or part of the strategy is to have Terrion build new towers and expand the business. So obviously, the monetization has benefits on deleveraging. This sounds like it has the potential to allow you to expand that business without necessarily having capital on the balance sheet. So I was just wondering if you could maybe talk about that and if the -- any builds would be kind of debt financed by Terrion. And maybe that would be separate than what -- you're consolidating it, so maybe it ends up on your balance sheet anyway, but just how that idea of deploying capital may have factored in. And on the same idea of capital, I thought I heard Doug -- I thought I heard you say that you were exploring or doing some partner build activity. And I was wondering if that related to fiber. I just wasn't sure if I heard that right. But obviously, across the industry, we see a lot of this type of model where people partner up and there's -- third-party capital comes to contribute to fiber builds. So just curious if I -- it might be a short question, maybe I heard that wrong, but if you could expand on that, if there's anything there, it would be helpful.

Yes. So Terrion will build the future towers for TELUS, and it will be funded by both us and our partners. So there is an opportunity there for cash flow opportunity. But because we do consolidate it, it will show up in TELUS' books with the offset to our partner funding. So it will still be a net cash differential. But that's all built into the model when I talked about our model going forward. And yes, on the partner planning, we're already using third-party partners in the West in building fiber. We are looking and started the same in the East. And so it would right now be focused on fiber, but it's not limited to, as Darren just highlighted, on data centers and other initiatives. So I would say, yes, that was the reference in mind was to fiber, but it is a great relationship going forward and other measures.

And can I follow up on that? Just the next thing that comes to mind is how much -- you mentioned, I think, earlier the $2 billion being devoted to build in the East. Is that a combined number? And is that a 50-50 number with a partner? And lastly, sort of anything you can say about the number of passings that this might be able to generate in the East?

That is a number related to the activity. How many balance sheets support that number remains to be determined. And as it relates to homes passed, I think let's leave that within the competitively sensitive category. And we will show our actuals against the investment prospectively in terms of that program. I think the important thing to highlight is the comment that Zainul made. We will be smart and strategic as it relates to this deployment. We're not coming in just to offer the same old, same old in terms of Internet, but at yet another hollow discount. We're looking to bring value and affordability to customers, but we want to ensure that customers get to enjoy the full portfolio of TELUS services ranging from health and security to smart energy and other ones that we have on the boil. And finally, we have an axiom in terms of the economics of our expansion, which is that it is value accretive for the organization. And when we highlight that, I think we've got the track record and the empirical evidence to back it up because if you look at our fiber deployment in the West, it is truly world-leading. There's not another organization that can match the success that we have realized on that front related to economics, product intensity where we're 3.4 products on a per household basis. What we've been able to achieve on average revenue per home, the lowering of churn, the lowering of cost to serve through truck rolls along the way is just tremendous. The penetration rates that we've secured within the communities overall would be a world-best result. So we're bringing that intellectual property to bear, and we're going to live up to the axiom of building value, not just RGUs.

The final question is from Kannan Venkat from Barclays.

Darren, maybe a long-term question on the pricing structure within the market itself. When you think about the new to Canada market, it looks like structurally, that's going to be smaller. And then convergence, I mean, just given your own fiber plans and what's going on in the rest of the industry, it feels like everybody is just going to converge with respect to bundles. So when you think about the flanker strategy or tiering the market across prepaid flanker and then, of course, the premium brands, does that tiering feel like it's too much for a market [indiscernible]? I mean is there an opportunity here to maybe pricing by actually tiering the market less? And so any thoughts on that longer term in terms of [indiscernible] would be great. And then secondly, on the balance sheet side, just given what's going on in the industry right now and even if we do have a recovery in the next 3 or 4 quarters, it feels like the revenue growth rate we are heading towards is going to be slower than maybe what we saw, say, 5 years ago. So is 3x leverage still the right number? Or as industry growth settles at a slightly lower level, should the leverage level drift closer to maybe some of your global peers?

Zainul, do you want to take the first part of that question from premium to flanker on that front? And then Doug and I will cover the balance sheet piece later.

That sounds good. Thanks for the question. I think the answer is that it has to be dynamic. So -- and it's not just an ARPU level of sort of delineation across these brands and offers, it's an AMPU level. And I think what we've seen is, as Darren highlighted, irrational behavior over the last little while in the market relative to the cost of acquisition, the 3 parameters I've talked about in terms of the promotional subsidy element, the device financing floor, the rate plans commensurate with sort of the value in those plans. So I think we have to take a dynamic approach consistently and continue to evolve our strategy on an AMPU basis. I also think that when it comes to bundles, it's not just about wireless and wireline, as we've discussed. It's about having other capabilities in the bundle that are delineated to that market demographic. You're certainly correct in saying that as we've seen along with the irrational behavior the sort of immigration trends, again, that might not be forever. So I think that we're going to consistently be dynamic. We're going to consistently evaluate the market based on what we think are the right winning strategies to attract the demographic at the right ARPU and AMPU level. And I would say that given that we are seeing some rational -- return to rational behavior, there is opportunity to continue rightsizing what the winning strategies are with what the right service investment and the right promotional investments are for those different segments. If we see that change, we will adapt to that change accordingly.

In terms of growth, I think we're missing out a lot of elements. Like we're taking a singular focus related to wireless, and we're propagating it into the future with some negative assumptions associated with it. So building upon the comments that Zainul just made, I would expect longer-term progression here and a greater level of economic rationality along the way. But I think that alone, discounts does not fully value the benefits that we're going to get out of AI and the meaningful impact that, that's going to have on our business from a sales service and efficiency point of view. And I think that's worth reflecting on further. The other thing is it leads up the wireline side of the business. And we have a growing and profitable wireline side of our business that is a unique characteristic to TELUS, and again, aided and embedded or underpinned by the TELUS Digital organization. We have an opportunity for national expansion. It's an attractive market for us to pursue in Ontario and Quebec. I guess it's our version of Ziply, if you will, along that particular path. And our track record on fiber deployment is literally world best. So I think that's a nice growth opportunity. We're loaded for bear on product differentiation. And I've highlighted this repetitiously on the call, but I think it's our job to squeeze economies of scope out of our fixed broadband infrastructure. But I think these services are attractive to both consumers and small businesses. I think we're continuing to exclusively focus on consumers. And TELUS has as much combined upside on SMB and mid-market as we do on the consumer front. And I see that as being underestimated. And then lastly, we've got some pretty attractive emerging businesses on the health, agriculture and…

Thank you, everyone, for joining us today. Please feel free to reach out to the IR team with any follow-ups. And for those of you in Canada, we wish you a nice long weekend.

This concludes the TELUS 2025 Q2 Earnings Release Call. Thank you for your participation, and have a nice day.