Art Penn
Analyst · Raymond James.
Yes. Look, it is a great question and time will tell. As I said, I think, in most cases, we are part of the first institutional capital in a company that's owned by a founder or an entrepreneur or a family. That founder, entrepreneur, or family are selling to a private equity firm in large part because there's a game plan for taking that $10 million or $20 million EBITDA company and taking it to $30 million, $40 million, $50 million, $70 million, $100 million of EBITDA. And you're right, in some cases, the multiples are pretty high today. There's a lot of private equity. Multiples are high on one hand. On the other hand, where you're taking the company from $15 million to $50 million of EBITDA, irregardless of paying a high multiple, you're going to get a very good return on that equity capital. How our debt is helping to fuel that growth? I mean, that's part of the – part of the social contract with the private equity firm who is permitting us to co-invest in the equity is that we are helping to drive that growth through our debt investments as a partner. And then we're participating in the ups through the co-invest. So is 29% sustainable? I mean, we're thrilled and excited that it's been 29% at MOIC at 2.9 times. Sure. I mean, we're skeptical people, we're debt people. We're always saying, we should always kind of cushion and kind of think about it as a 20% IRR type of thing and maybe it's not 2.9 times, it's 2.4 times or something like that. And that would be us as credit people and skeptics, that's probably how we'd model it, something like that. But we've gone through an extraordinary time period. And I'd say kind of the one thing that's newer, I highlighted this on the call, and we've been in business at PennantPark now, we're in our 15th year, we've really honed in, in the last handful of years on where we add the most value, where we bring the most knowledge, where we can avoid the most mistakes, where we can get the best package of risk-adjusted return, including covenants. And it seems to be kind of below this radar, a lot of press about the upper middle market and the mega unit-tranches and all this other stuff, but where we add this most value is kind of in this $10 million to $30 million of EBITDA, where we're partnering as part of the first institutional capital of the company. So it's been working, it's been working better. I feel like we're continuously improving and getting better in that vein. But time will tell.