Earnings Labs

Tennant Company (TNC)

Q4 2008 Earnings Call· Tue, Feb 24, 2009

$81.66

-1.02%

Key Takeaways · AI generated
AI summary not yet generated for this transcript. Generation in progress for older transcripts; check back soon, or browse the full transcript below.

Same-Day

-6.91%

1 Week

-29.68%

1 Month

-14.17%

vs S&P

-21.43%

Transcript

Operator

Operator

Good morning and thank you for participating in Tennant Company's Fourth Quarter 2008 Earnings Conference Call. This call is being recorded. If you do not wish to participate, you may disconnect at this time. After the speakers' remarks, there will be a question and answer session. (Operator Instructions). We ask that you remain on the line for closing remarks by management after the question and answer session. Beginning today's meeting is Tom Paulson, Vice President and Chief Financial Officer for Tennant Company. Mr. Paulson you may begin.

Thomas Paulson

Management

Thanks Rachel. Good morning everyone and welcome to Tennant's Company fourth quarter 2008 earnings conference call. I'm Tom Paulson, Vice President and Chief Financial Officer of Tennant Company. With me on the call today are Chris Killingstad, Tennant's President and CEO, Pat O'Neill, our Treasurer; and Karen Durant, our Corporate Controller. Our agenda this morning is to review Tennant's performance during the quarter and full year and our outlook for 2009. First Chris will update you on our operations and I'll review the financials. After that we will open up the call for your questions. Before we begin please be advised that our remarks this morning and our answers to questions may contain forward-looking statements regarding the company's expectations or future performance. Such statements are subject to risks and uncertainties, and our actual results may differ materially from those contained in the statements. These risks and uncertainties are described in today's news release and the documents we filed with Securities and Exchange Commission. We encourage you to review those documents, particularly our Safe Harbor statements for a description of the risks and uncertainties that may affect our results. Additionally, this conference call includes discussion of non-GAAP measures that include or exclude unusual or non-recurring items. For each non-GAAP measure, we also provide the most directly comparable GAAP measure. And our earnings release issued today includes a schedule of reconciles these non-GAAP measures to our GAAP results. Our earnings release was issued this morning via Business Wire, and is also posted on the investors section of our website at tennantco.com. Now I'll turn over the call to Chris who'll review Tennant's fourth quarter and full year performance and discuss how we are driving to deliver results in 2009. Chris?

H. Chris Killingstad

Management

Thanks Tom and thanks to all of you for joining us this morning. As you know, the global economy declined sharply in the fourth quarter and Tennant certainly felt the impact. While we are disappointed that recent economic events had such a negative effect on our fourth quarter results, we are proud of our many key accomplishments during the year. These include the three strategic acquisitions in 2008 that expanded our presence in the international markets, the successful launch of ec-H2Otechnology and the continuing growth opportunities that it affords. As well as the $10 million of growth savings from our global low cost sourcing and lean manufacturing initiatives. Let's step back and take a broad look at Tennant's performance in 2008. If you recall, Tennant entered 2008 in a growth mode. After posting record sales in 2007 with an organic sales increase of approximately 6.5%, we were anticipating further gains in 2008, but had contingency plans in place to reduce costs if the economy faltered. Around mid March we began implementing Phase 1 of our contingency plans, taking actions to lower spending levels as sales softened in North America. At that time, we either cut or delayed discretionary spending and postponed non-revenue generating new hires. Consistent with our lean principles we also reduced work hours in our plants to match demand. These early 2008 steps lowered our variable costs, prevented unnecessary inventory build up and helped generate solid operating performance through the third quarter of 2008. In fact, our operating margins improved sequentially each quarter through the first nine months of 2008, reaching 8.8% in the 2008 third quarter. We also posted organic sales growth of approximately 4% in the 2008 second and third quarters. Against this backdrop, economic forecasts continued to deteriorate heading into the fourth quarter. What started…

Thomas Paulson

Management

Thank you, Chris. In my comments today, all references to earnings per share are on a fully diluted basis. Also please note as I go through the financials that I'll generally not be commenting specifically on the full year financials, results are detailed at links in the earnings release. For the fourth quarter ended December 31, 2008 Tennant reported a net loss of 16.9 million or a $0.92 loss per diluted share on net sales of 153.3 million. Fourth quarter net earnings were reduced by 19.8 million pre-tax or $0.88 per diluted share, for the previously disclosed restructuring of which 14.6 million was related to our workforce reduction. The workforce reduction is estimated to achieve annualized savings of at least 15 million in 2009 and 20 million in 2010, as Chris noted. In the fourth quarter, the company also recorded a $5.2 million charge for other unusual items, including 3.4 million for increased accounts receivable reserves due to the global credit crisis and a $1.8 million write-off related to technology investments that are being replaced by new solutions. In North America, we continue to see a longer sales cycle with customers delaying their purchases due to the economy. Our 2008 fourth quarter net sales in North America totaled 88.2 million, down nearly 19% versus the prior year quarter, on lower unit equipment volume. The company's applied acquisition contribute approximately 1% to North America's fourth quarter net sales which was offset by an unfavorable foreign currency exchange effect of approximately 1%. We believe, Tennant will be well positioned as a market leader in North America when activity in the industrial and outdoor segment regains strength; and as commercial customers migrate to smaller cleaning machines because of the maneuverability and attractive price points we anticipate capturing this business with the compact products…

Operator

Operator

Thank you, Sir.(Operator Instructions). Our first question comes from the line of Seaver Wang, your line is open.

Seaver Wang - Utendahl Capital Partners, Lp.

Analyst

Hi, quick question on on-going cost savings, you reached your $10 million mark, can you give us a range for cost savings for '09?

Thomas Paulson

Management

Yeah, I'll give you a sense of that Seaver, we don't anticipate -- we anticipate holding onto the savings that we've done, are to date. And we don't anticipate being able to expect to repeat that $10 million level in '09. We believe our sourcing benefit should be in an additional $5 million of additional sourcing savings. Obviously somewhat effected by the lower revenue base that we're anticipating. And we do believe we will get some lean benefits over and above that, I'm just not ready to give you a number on that at the current time, given that -- the wide range of our revenue. But we do anticipate to continue savings. We believe we'll continue to be successful but don't anticipate to be able to repeat the $10 million level in '09.

Seaver Wang - Utendahl Capital Partners, Lp.

Analyst

Okay and then assuming that the consulting firm you hired can reduce SG&A at least a little bit in '09 then there is -- say maybe a little bit of upside possibly?

Thomas Paulson

Management

We would anticipate -- we'll get some quick wins in '09 from the work we're doing. The front end of the work we're doing is really an in-depth assessment of our processes globally, and then we're going to pick the projects out of that that will begin to implement. So we do believe we'll get some incremental benefit this year but the big wins are going to be as we go out over the next few years I mean this isn't going to be a quick project. This is going to be a long term change in the way we do business to become best in class in many areas and really ensure that as revenue starts growing we are not adding people back and that we can really leverage our people costs as we go forward, which is as you know has not been a real strength for Tennant in the past.

Seaver Wang - Utendahl Capital Partners, Lp.

Analyst

And then the R&D, do you expect it to remain at that 3 to 4% sales, but probably close to the 3%?

Thomas Paulson

Management

We will remain within range. And I would call it at the lower end to the middle at the current time, but we firmly intend to remain within the 3 to 4% range with our R&D spend.

Seaver Wang - Utendahl Capital Partners, Lp.

Analyst

Okay.

H. Chris Killingstad

Management

But more importantly there we intend to maintain a robust new product pipeline through this period and to ensure that the key initiatives and strategies that will provide the biggest benefit, are preserved so we can leverage them when the economy recovers and that's the important message.

Seaver Wang - Utendahl Capital Partners, Lp.

Analyst

Okay and the product portfolios, pretty robust at this point given the last two years of product rollout. I mean are you fairly satisfied at this point but -- with the product portfolio with no real big, I guess, deficiencies?

H. Chris Killingstad

Management

We anticipate achieving or exceeding our goal of 30% of equipment sales coming from new products launched in the last three years in 2009.

Seaver Wang - Utendahl Capital Partners, Lp.

Analyst

And then last question just what can we expect that the tax rate for...?

Thomas Paulson

Management

I would use a 37% rate Seaver, the current time. It's we'd like to think that's conservative, but I just believe that's the best rate to use right now.

Seaver Wang - Utendahl Capital Partners, Lp.

Analyst

Okay. Thank you.

H. Chris Killingstad

Management

Your welcome.

Operator

Operator

Thank you very much. Our next question comes from the line of Theodor Kundtz. Your line is open. Theodor Kundtz - Needham & Company: Yes. Hello, everyone.

H. Chris Killingstad

Management

Hi, Ted.

Thomas Paulson

Management

Hey Ted.

Seaver Wang - Utendahl Capital Partners, Lp.

Analyst

Could you guys -- maybe Chris, maybe just talk a little bit more about the different geographies that you are serving and kind of the business conditions you are seeing in each and how they might be different in the U.S. versus Europe versus the rest of the world? Maybe just a little more color on that will be helpful.

H. Chris Killingstad

Management

Well my experience usually recessions are rolling and they don't hit all geographies equally at the same time. What we are sensing right now is that all geographies are being hit very hard by the recession and if you look at our sales in the fourth quarter, I think that is a pretty accurate reflection of what we are going to continue to see through 2009 with North America, and Europe being hardest hit. Followed by Asia Pacific; maybe some bright spots in Asia Pacific, but Japan, as we saw that their fourth quarter GDP decline is going to face a very tough year. We anticipate a little bit more robust market in China just because of the stage of development and then Latin America, where our sales were pretty much flat in the fourth quarter. I think given the acquisition of Alpha in Brazil and given that we are starting off with such a low base that's probably the one bright spot in 2009. Unfortunately it's also the smallest part of our business. So it's we're not going to make or break the business based on our performance in Latin America. Theodor Kundtz - Needham & Company: Do you see conditions getting worst currently than they were in the fourth quarter or just sort of a continuation of what you saw in the fourth quarter when things really kind of slowed down dramatically for you?

Thomas Paulson

Management

You know -- just to kind of go back on that a little bit Ted, I mean -- we -- the fourth quarter had three pretty different months and these are broad numbers but October was down about 5%, organically; December was over 20% down and November, December was around 20%. Which brought the overall quarter down about 16 and what I would say is we're looking at our trends right now into the first quarter. Things are moderating, its not getting worse. But we -- I would say to use a broad number best case it will be a similar year-on-year decline to what we saw on the fourth quarter. So conditions have moderated. They are not getting worse, but we're not seeing any significant improvement. Theodor Kundtz - Needham & Company: You're just concerned about the commercial space and that -- what's happening in the commercial market and is that impacting you guys much differently, or...?

Thomas Paulson

Management

We're being negatively affected across all segments of our business to be straightforward about it. Actually the industrial side is where, and our larger equipment sales is where the biggest year-on-year declines are. But we're being adversely affected across all parts of our portfolio. Theodor Kundtz - Needham & Company: Okay. And the additional agreement, the license agreement with them is -- what -- is there any sense of quantifying that at all, or do you have any sense of what that outlook would be for the year?

Thomas Paulson

Management

We're not really at liberty to give you a number on that, Ted. I mean we have -- it's not going to be a real big number. But it's relevant to our financials. But we're not prepared to give you a number on that.

H. Chris Killingstad

Management

And I think the more interesting thing Ted, is that we are now actively investigating licensing opportunities in markets we don't serve. With this being the first one and we think there are over time we will generate more and more business through licensing that is one of those strategies. Theodor Kundtz - Needham & Company: Yeah. That'd be great because that's all profit.

H. Chris Killingstad

Management

We love that. Theodor Kundtz - Needham & Company: Great. Okay, and then just maybe a little more color on the roll out of ec-H2O. How is that being accepted out there, any kind of push back to it at all or your just kind of your view of the rapidity of the acceptance of that?

H. Chris Killingstad

Management

Well, we haven't said much about what our sales levels are or exactly which customers we've managed to penetrate and we do that more for competitive reasons at this point. But I did say that sales exceeded our internal plant projections, despite the recession in 2008 and I think that customer excitement has quite frankly feed our expectations as well. I mean we went in thinking that the chemical cost savings would be the big deal but customer is coming back and saying yeah, that's important but boy you know it's improves our productivity, streamlines the cleaning process and lowers our training expenses and we think its going to reduce our medical liability cost as well because our people no longer have to breath or handle these chemicals, and it leaves behind no environmental footprint. So, it's a win on every important front for a customer. So, it's a much more broad-based win for customers than we had anticipated going in which is real positive, which is why we think customer satisfaction has been better than we anticipated. Like with any new technology there is an adoption curve. You have the innovators and the early adopters and they turn to be the opinion leaders in the industry and eventually you get to the mass market. We are still very much of beginning of that curve. But we are as I said testing ec-H2Oacross most of the big key and global accounts (ph) around world currently. Theodor Kundtz - Needham & Company: Okay.

H. Chris Killingstad

Management

We have some great early wins, we haven't disclosed who they are. But based on that we believe that we will be able to accelerate growth through winning more than our peer's share of that business going forward. Theodor Kundtz - Needham & Company: And when does the schedule go out on the rider's scrubbers? You mentioned five being in '09. Is that early on in the year or throughout the year, or...?

H. Chris Killingstad

Management

Yeah it has just started. First, I think the first letter has been introduced to the market so it's going to be rolled out between now and I think the last one goes out in the early third quarter. Theodor Kundtz - Needham & Company: Okay.

H. Chris Killingstad

Management

So, it is more front-end or first half loaded. Theodor Kundtz - Needham & Company: Loaded, okay, terrific. Okay, thank you.

H. Chris Killingstad

Management

Your welcome.

Operator

Operator

Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Joe Maxwell. Your line is open sir. Joseph Maxwell - Dougherty & Company, LLC: Thank you. Can you give us a sense, I know you said all parts of your business were down but where the parts in service line came in and what you are seeing to that line here in Q1?

Thomas Paulson

Management

Yeah clearly that business is holding up better than our equipment sales and we are not ready to give any specific numbers on what we are seeing in those exact trends as we are into January and February. But that part of our business is holding up better and -- but we have seen -- that has been affected more than we would have anticipated and but we do believe that will return to normalcy. People need to maintain their equipment and we believe that part of our business will hold up and be -- continue to be somewhat of an annuity stream for us. But it has been more negatively affected in the back-end of the year than we would have -- back in the last year than we would have anticipated. Joseph Maxwell - Dougherty & Company, LLC: And then Tom how do you get to your guidance, can you kind of walk us through how you peg that revenue?

Thomas Paulson

Management

We actually we've really built it up by geography Joe and I mean in -- it is really anticipating that we see -- we built it up by geography but it really does assume that we see very similar first quarter to what we saw in the fourth quarter and very modest sequential improvement in our business. So, as you just look at it, as we go into the second quarter we anticipate to see modest improvement but we expect to continue to see revenues below prior year and we do believe that by the time we get to the fourth quarter and we're lapping obviously an extremely low quarter that we do expect to see some upside versus the prior year. But for now we are just looking towards modest sequential improvement quarter-to-quarter and no real big improvement in the overall economy. Joseph Maxwell - Dougherty & Company, LLC: So service and the parts has been a little better than your equipment. Have you also, I mean as part of this -- what kind of discussions have you had with your customers or your larger customers and what they are saying about what they are looking at for '09?

Thomas Paulson

Management

We have obviously factored in feedback from our sales folks and their conversations with our customers. But they tend to be more optimistic than the reality of what's going on in the market place, so we're really not relying heavily on what the field is saying. Joseph Maxwell - Dougherty & Company, LLC: Okay, that's very helpful. My -- I got cut out a couple of times. When you were talking about the OpEx and the consulting firm that you're hiring did you give a goal of what you're trying to get to?

Thomas Paulson

Management

We did not. We just said its really about a two to three year project that we're just at the front-end of it. We are going to do about a 12 week assessment of our processes really around the whole globe and then we will pick the key projects and begin implementation to drive our process improvement, over the next period of time. And we expect obviously to get a quick wins, but we're taking a long term point of view with this, really change our operating expense structure. Joseph Maxwell - Dougherty & Company, LLC: Okay and then I also missed out when you were talking about your debt covenants, you thought you'd be able to restructure...?

Thomas Paulson

Management

Yes, we are in compliance at the end of December and we are having conversations with our banks and we anticipate to have this situation rectified so we won't have any potential issues as we go into the next as we go into this fiscal year. So we anticipate having that all signed before we file our 10-K. So we will not be facing any potential issues as we go into the year-end right now. Joseph Maxwell - Dougherty & Company, LLC: And the main driver was just to exclude the restructuring out of those numbers?

Thomas Paulson

Management

Yes. Joseph Maxwell - Dougherty & Company, LLC: Okay. Alright, thank you.

Thomas Paulson

Management

You're welcome.

H. Chris Killingstad

Management

Your welcome Joe.

Operator

Operator

Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of James Bank. Your line is open sir. James Bank - Sidoti & Company: Good morning.

Thomas Paulson

Management

Hey, James.

H. Chris Killingstad

Management

Good morning, James. James Bank - Sidoti & Company: Hi. Quickly Tom, what were the existing covenants on that senior debt?

Thomas Paulson

Management

The two main covenants are debt-to-EBITDA ratio of less than 3.5 or lower and also on EBITDA to interest ratio of 3.5 or higher. So those are the two primary covenants and I want to emphasize we did not have any issues with that at the end of December and its really about excluding the restructuring charges as we go forward to not potentially have an issue on a go forward basis. So, we do believe we're out in front of this and anticipating, having things signed before we file our 10-K. James Bank - Sidoti & Company: Okay and what is the remaining borrow capacity, the actual borrow amount?

Thomas Paulson

Management

Do you have that handy, Pat?

Patrick O'Neill

Analyst

It is about that $35 million.

Thomas Paulson

Management

Yeah, about $35 million available on the credit lines and we also ended the year with...

Patrick O'Neill

Analyst

29 million.

Thomas Paulson

Management

$29 million of cash. So we think we have more than adequate cash to satisfy any kind of operating needs we have on a go forward basis. James Bank - Sidoti & Company: Okay. Now the lower-end of your guidance, excuse me, your guidance in general the bottom-line guidance setting into '09, does that include any charges you are assuming?

Thomas Paulson

Management

It assumes no additional charges. James Bank - Sidoti & Company: Okay. So I -- so, Tom, just a quick eyeball, is that $0.05 -- that nickel on the lower-end with an assumed EBITDA of maybe 80, 90 million is that more or less in breach I guess of what would let's just consider it a prior covenant before you do restructure it?

Thomas Paulson

Management

It potentially could be. James Bank - Sidoti & Company: Okay.

Thomas Paulson

Management

Which is the reason why we're trying to get down in front of the issue, as -- if you look at your forecast you look at the state of the economy, our point of view is it make sense to be very straightforward with your lenders and look out to where things are going and get those situations behind you; particularly with the uncertainties out in the front of us. And we have had good conversations to date and we believe we will get an agreement signed with our bank group prior to filing. James Bank - Sidoti & Company: Okay what date do you anticipate filing the Q?

Thomas Paulson

Management

Anticipated date is March 5th, roughly; somewhere around that date. James Bank - Sidoti & Company: Okay great, I'll look forward to that then. And then quickly jumping to ec-H2O now -- you keep switching on me. What is the premium again on that? On percentage terms like if you took a standard walk behind the scrubber machine, and then you took one with the eco techno -- or, excuse me, the ec-H2O technology, what would the premium be again?

Thomas Paulson

Management

You know it such a wide range, James, just given the diversity of the pricing on that piece of equipment, that the device is very similar on each of the pieces of equipment, so the percentage up charge are quite dramatic. So, we'd prefer not to get into that. James Bank - Sidoti & Company: Okay, fair enough. And that's all I have, thank you.

Thomas Paulson

Management

You are welcome.

Operator

Operator

Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Mathew Leverson (ph). Your line is open, sir.

Unidentified Analyst

Analyst

Thank you, most of my questions have been answered, but I do have a couple remaining. I understand of course that you've applied for patents on ec-H2O and I wondered that you had some idea of the time frame in which they might be conferred?

H. Chris Killingstad

Management

We've applied for in excess of 20 patents on ec-H2O and I don't know -- we don't have clarity yet on when they're going to be conferred. Its -- it is a much slower process than we would like.

Unidentified Analyst

Analyst

Understood.

H. Chris Killingstad

Management

But we are highly confident that they will be allowed at this point.

Unidentified Analyst

Analyst

Okay, well that's certainly reassuring. One thing I noticed is that your warranty expenses tend to be fairly high. They seem to run in the area of 2% of sales with some transacting even more than that. And it would seem that if the management were able to address this in some way without -- naturally without angering your customers that it could do some very things to margins. Have you looked at this? Is there something that could be done in terms of say either strengthening some parts or some re-engineering that might significantly impact this expense (ph)?

Thomas Paulson

Management

Well, I think what we are focusing on is more is to improve the reliability of our products. So I think one of the things that we have been faced with here over the last two three years is that we have launched so many new products off new platforms. Right whereas historically Tennant had a very stable product portfolio where we had anywhere between 10 and 12 years to get it right and to workout all the bugs and so warranty was at a lower rate. And I think it has increased little bit now that we have launched so many new products, but we do have believe me in place in 2009 and going forward, very specific actions for insuring that we design for reliability and that our manufacturing processes also ensure that we are building the machines to the very high quality standards that we have. And I anticipate us making progress on this front starting in 2009.

Unidentified Analyst

Analyst

That would be very good. One last question if I might. There were references to the company being impacted by higher material costs and now with the recession, are you perhaps benefiting from lower material costs?

Thomas Paulson

Management

We do. At the current time, we think that as you look at where costs are to date, from the kind of the commodity oriented things that we buy, are part of our costs of goods sold. We do view it as an opportunity as we look forward into the year and we are seeing the trends go in the right direction for us and we view it as, the year is certainly shaping up to be more positive in that regard than the prior year was.

Unidentified Analyst

Analyst

Okay well thank you very much.

Thomas Paulson

Management

You are welcome.

H. Chris Killingstad

Management

You are welcome.

Operator

Operator

Thank you, our next question comes from the line of Zaheer Siddique (ph) your line is open sir.

Unidentified Analyst

Analyst

Hi good morning.

Thomas Paulson

Management

Hi.

H. Chris Killingstad

Management

Hi.

Unidentified Analyst

Analyst

Just a couple of question, one on the BISSELL deal. Just in general philosophically is -- doesn't that the licensing doesn't that use the Tennant brand?

Thomas Paulson

Management

It's not, they do not use the Tennant brand on their products.

Unidentified Analyst

Analyst

Correct but if you start licensing your products in that way, would that not that you would -- your product rent (ph) in anyway?

Thomas Paulson

Management

Yeah we don't believe so Zaheer (ph). I mean what we are looking at it is we want to license if we do it into areas that we are not intending to compete. And we are selling our products into the industrial and commercial markets. We don't have any intention of competing in the consumer arena. So if we can take our technologies and they can be adapted into that area and we can earn a licensing fee, we view it as being a positive for us financially and in many instances it should be positive for the brand also.

H. Chris Killingstad

Management

And my belief is that the broader your technology base as long as you maintain the integrity of that technology and where you deliver it to the end-user whether it be a consumer or a commercial customer. It builds credibility, acceptance and of that techno -- I think its benefits us in the core markets that we will continue to go direct in. And I also just think it puts us in the forefront of being a technology leader, so that when we launch the next generation of technologies, people will say look Tennant; they have done -- they did the ReadySpace Technology and the ec-H2O Technology and look they do it both in hospitality and healthcare and retail, and they've been successful in consumer applications as well. I just think that helps us get off to a much faster start and get broader reach for our technologies as we go forward.

Unidentified Analyst

Analyst

Okay and my next question is on CapEx for '09. What should we expect?

Thomas Paulson

Management

$15 million or lower.

Unidentified Analyst

Analyst

15 or lower.

Thomas Paulson

Management

And, that's obviously depended upon the state of the economy but we're prepared to ensure that current plans are to spend at the $15 million level which is substantially below where we've been in the last four or five years and also its actually below our D&A. But we are prepared as the economy gets tougher to go below that level.

Unidentified Analyst

Analyst

Okay great and just one last question, what was the rationale behind changing the name of ECHO to ec-H2O?

Karen Durant

Analyst

It's the ability to trade market.

H. Chris Killingstad

Management

Well I mean it's really the ability to trade market and making sure we had something that was protectable as we went forward. And actually now its become ec-H2O, I mean it's a much easier name to remember and it's a much easier concept to explain, so I think its been a net positive for us.

Unidentified Analyst

Analyst

Okay and but in terms of customer recognition it does that doesn't change, you are kind of early on in the process.

H. Chris Killingstad

Management

No. We were so early on in the process that this was kind of like inside baseball. We knew about the brand and what it meant but our customers were just beginning to learn about it.

Unidentified Analyst

Analyst

Okay.

H. Chris Killingstad

Management

And if you look at the logo, I mean its still -- its very similar to what it was before. We just talk about it differently.

Unidentified Analyst

Analyst

Okay, thank you so much.

H. Chris Killingstad

Management

You are welcome

Operator

Operator

Thank you. Our next question comes from Chirag Patel (ph), your line is open.

Unidentified Analyst

Analyst

As we talked about raw material prices coming in, how do you anticipate pricing to hold up going into 2009?

Thomas Paulson

Management

We have taken price increases and we do anticipate to be able to get some modest pricing benefits but it will be, not anywhere near what we have achieved over the last few years and we are not prepared to give you an exact number but it will be positive but not nearly the magnitude that we've had over the last two to three years.

Unidentified Analyst

Analyst

Okay and then moving over to just the revenues in general, I was kind of looking for a break out between the equipment and the parts. I know, I think that's something you guys include in the 10-K but do you have a general feel for how that percentage was for the full year here?

H. Chris Killingstad

Management

It's about in 60-40.

Thomas Paulson

Management

Yeah.

H. Chris Killingstad

Management

Its about 60-40. 60% equipment, 40 % service parts and consumables.

Unidentified Analyst

Analyst

Okay, you kind of hold -- expect that to hold up for 2009?

H. Chris Killingstad

Management

Well, it is held up for the last four or five years. So could it shift a little bit in favor of service parts and consumables, absolutely.

Unidentified Analyst

Analyst

Okay.

H. Chris Killingstad

Management

But we do not anticipate a big change.

Unidentified Analyst

Analyst

Okay. And then on the 15 million in CapEx for 2009, what's maintenance CapEx?

Thomas Paulson

Management

It's something below the $15 million level. So it's -- and we've never given a precise number in that and so its obviously somewhere below 15 million because we are continuing to fund our cost reduction efforts and our new product introduction, that's included in the 15. So our bare minimum maintenance is clearly somewhere below that level.

Unidentified Analyst

Analyst

Okay thanks.

Thomas Paulson

Management

Welcome.

H. Chris Killingstad

Management

You're welcome.

Operator

Operator

Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Kevin Casey (ph). Your line is open sir.

Unidentified Analyst

Analyst

Couple of questions I might have missed some of these. Did you break down how much ec-H2O sales were in the quarter?

Thomas Paulson

Management

We have not Kevin. We haven't given any breakout for that and for the time being for competitive reasons we don't anticipate doing that any in the near future.

Unidentified Analyst

Analyst

Okay.

H. Chris Killingstad

Management

All we are saying was that it exceeded our internal plans.

Unidentified Analyst

Analyst

Okay and then have you guys received, when you have these royalty arrangements for both that product and some of the other technology, do you guys receive any upfront payments or is it all based on future sales?

Thomas Paulson

Management

Tends to be based on future sales?

Unidentified Analyst

Analyst

And then the renegotiating of the debt, is there going to be a cost associated with that?

Thomas Paulson

Management

There will be some fees associated with that.

Unidentified Analyst

Analyst

And is that in the guidance or is that going to be a one time?

Thomas Paulson

Management

Its included in our numbers, on a go forward basis. So, there will be some fees associated and it will dictate that we have more market based interest rates on a go forward basis. At the current time our loan is far below market and so we would anticipate there will be some higher interest costs associated with that.

Unidentified Analyst

Analyst

And then...

Thomas Paulson

Management

And that is based in our -- that is built into our guidance.

Unidentified Analyst

Analyst

Okay and then is there a rate which you walk and take the chance on the covenants?

Thomas Paulson

Management

We would not anticipate doing that, no.

Unidentified Analyst

Analyst

Alright thanks.

Thomas Paulson

Management

You are welcome.

Operator

Operator

Thank you and our next question comes from the line of Theodor Kundtz your line is open. Theodor Kundtz - Needham & Company: Just a quick follow up, Tom you were just taking about looking at the cap reserve, kind of foreseeable reserve you took. What's your view going forward on that, are you -- is there a concern that with the environment out here you are going to see some more have to take some more of that capital (ph)?

Thomas Paulson

Management

Yeah, we think we've obviously adequately reserved ourselves as of the end of December, that's why we took the actions. And there's an awful lot of literature out there that you need to think about it differently given the credit crisis that's going on. We have also built-in a higher level of ads to our reserves, into our guidance as we go forward. So not only do we believe we adequately reserved our self, we're also expecting that we are going to need to continue to add reserves at a higher level than we would historically have done. Theodor Kundtz - Needham & Company: Okay. And that is in the guidance.

Thomas Paulson

Management

That is in our guidance, yeah. We feel we're adequately recovered ourselves. Theodor Kundtz - Needham & Company: Okay. Great thanks.

Thomas Paulson

Management

Bet.

Operator

Operator

Thank you. There are no further questions at this time. Do you have any closing remarks.

H. Chris Killingstad

Management

Yes I do. So thank you all for your time today and for your questions. Despite the current macroeconomic conditions, we are focused on controlling what we can control in 2009. We remain confident in our business model and are firmly committed to the long term strategic direction that we have established. Although the year ahead looks very challenging and frankly it maybe a bumpy ride, we believe that our strategies of international market expansion, new products and operating efficiency gains coupled with strong cost controls position us well for a long-term success. Further we believe these strategies will allow us to have the right products in the right geographies, excuse me -- with an improved cost structure that should allow us to resume our historical track record of profitable growth when the macroeconomic conditions improve. And we look forward to keeping you all posted on our progress. Thank you.

Operator

Operator

Thank you for your participation. This concludes today's conference call. You may now disconnect.